imported>BirdOfBlueFeathers22: /* Change to Veil */

2024-09-09T00:37:06Z

Change to Veil

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I agree with that last statement about Veil's actions being triggered by the way the other creatures of Redwall were treating him...

But you know Brian Jacques... He feels that all "vermin" must be evil... for some reason... figures... he insults most of the Mustelidae family... {{unsigned|Ermine|03:37, 13 November 2006}}

What about Ashleg? He was allied with the baddies, but he himself wasn't particularly nasty. Rather pitiful, really. He also leaves for a simpler life, one of peace and such.
Er, are pine martens in the same family as ferrets? {{unsigned|76.189.238.75|14:30, 8 August 2008}}

Yes, yes they are in Mustelidae. However, they are a bit different from other mustelids, being bigger than some cats. They have a subspecies called a sable.
--[[User:Snowstripe the Fierce|Snowstripe]] [[Image:Urthstripe.jpg| 45px | ]] [[User talk:Snowstripe the Fierce|You're always welcome at my mountain.]] 21:01, July 27, 2015 (UTC)

== Really, the only who trusted him ==

was Bryony and togget. Did anybeast notice that Veil's name is also an anagram of 'Live?' He gave his life for Bryony. (Hmm, he wouldn't have unless he cared for her!!) [[User:Shieldmaiden |Shieldmaiden ]] [[Image:Matthias2.JPG| 70px | ]] [[User talk:Shieldmaiden |Tell Me Something I Don't Know!]] 14:09, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

His name is also an anagram of "vile" and "evil". It's a little thing that BJ put in. Also, it was a natural reflex to protect his only mother figure. And since he hated his father, he would naturally want to thwart his shot and the only way he could do that was to let it hit him. Nevertheless, he was a gray character, now and forever.
--[[User:Snowstripe the Fierce|Snowstripe]] [[Image:Urthstripe.jpg| 45px | ]] [[User talk:Snowstripe the Fierce|You're always welcome at my mountain.]] 21:06, July 27, 2015 (UTC)

==Abbess Vale?==

Doesn't her name sound eerily simalar to his? Is this a coincidence, or is it significant? --{{unsigned|67.182.157.63|16:57, 9 January 2009}}

== Vote Now! ==

I am holding a voting on my user page to see the opinion of the Redwall community on whether Veil is good or evil. Voting ends at the end of April.
[[User:Thurrn the Ranger|Thurrn the Ranger]] 04:46, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Well ==

Didn't Bryony herself say that Veil probably wouldn't have protected her if he had known that Swartt was going to throw the spear? I mean, if she believed he was evil, than he probably was, considering she was the one most in favor of him being considered good. --[[User:Martin2|The Hooded One]] [[Image:For MArtin2 copy.jpg|45px ]][[User Talk:Martin2|Gaze into Darkness!]] 03:47, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

== Actually ==

Bryony said she didn't know if Veil knew that Swartt was going to throw the spear or not. She NEVER said that Veil wouldn't have done it, she said she didn't know.

And furthermore, Bryony said that Veil *was* bad; all his life she was denying all of his badness, but after all that had happened, she was finally facing what she didn't want to see (even if it was a bit late). And let's face it, people, Veil *was* bad.

And also, Togget didn't really trust Veil either, not really. He seemed to put up with the ferret for Bryony's sake; you recall when they rescued Veil from the foxes he shouted at them, and it was Togget who landed the first blow. Veil shoved him, and he didn't attack Bryony until she started to pummel him. Just wanted to point that out.

And also, about what Jacques has said about vermin, I'd like to point out Blaggut, Ashleg, Romsca, Graylunk, the water rats from "Marlfox", the vermin from "Eulalia!", and so on. Those were all "good" characters. And there have been plenty of evil woodlanders: Druwp, Fenno, the grumpy bankvole from "Eulalia!", the Log-a-Log from "Doomwyte", Nimbalo's father, etc.

I recall reading somewhere that Jacques was questioned about that, but he only gave an ambigious answer. A guess of mine is this:

Jacques says he only has "goodies" and "baddies" in his books; maybe Blaggut and Co. were never "baddies" to begin with? Maybe they too are "goodies"? Though Romsca did steal and murder in her past... I don't know. Meh. {{unsigned|24.20.108.31|08:57, November 14}}

:Hi, this is all information that would belong in an essay, rather than a talk page. -- [[User:LordTBT|LordTBT]] [[Image:Tbtico.jpg]] [[User talk:LordTBT|Talk!]] 17:37, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

I never actually read "Eulalia!", but just out of curiosity, why weren't those vermin so evil? [[User:Megadracosaurus|Megadracosaurus]] ([[User talk:Megadracosaurus|talk]]) 16:26, March 1, 2015 (UTC)

I did make an essay [[User blog:Verminfate/Essay: Redwall's most controversial character..... Veil|here]].--[[User:Verminfate|Verminfate]] [[Image:Verminfate's Ermine.jpg|70px]] [[Image:Wengle brookrudder.png|70px]] [[User talk:Verminfate|Nobeast outfights Razgath the Mercenary! ]]

== Are we sure? ==

Are we sure that picture is of Veil? If you look at the older US Hardback version--that's where it's from--it has that picture, and on the back cover, is Sunflash and the bird. It sort of gives the impression that Swartt is looking at them through the foliage, unless Veil spotted them at one point in the story before the showdown on the mountain.

[[User:Clockworthy|Clockworthy]] [[Image:Lairdbosie.jpg| 70px]] [[User talk:Clockworthy |From Clockworth to Eternity]] 21:27, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

:Actually, I think you have a point, there - now that you remind me, I always got the impression that that picture was of Swartt and not Veil, given the context of the book art of Sunflash and Skarlath...maybe we could remove the photo, then? - [[User:D2r|d2r]] 22:29, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

:Yes. The title of the book is "Outcast of Redwall". Veil is the titular character and the outcast, thus the cover character being any other character fails to make sense. The book art does not necessarily have to match an event in the book. "Salamandastron", "Marlfox", and "Taggerung" come to mind. -- [[User:LordTBT|LordTBT]] [[Image:Tbtico.jpg]] [[User talk:LordTBT|Talk!]] 04:22, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

== Word Tense Issue ==

Someone keeps reverting the last paragraph to present-tense format (i.e. "Veil ''goes'' to Location X and ''does'' Y" as opposed to "Veil ''went'' to Location X and ''did'' Y". I'm going to go out on a limb here and argue that this isn't in keeping with the style of the rest of the wiki as a whole, so I'm going to re-edit it back to the past tense, as with the rest of the wiki, and remove all other grammar problems and un-necessary flourishes. If the person who's doing the constant reversions believes I am in error on the matter, I ask them to make their case here so that LordTBT or someone else can moderate on the matter. - [[User:D2r|d2r]] 22:47, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

:It is not in the style. Past tense for character articles is the style here, you are correct. -- [[User:LordTBT|LordTBT]] [[Image:Tbtico.jpg]] [[User talk:LordTBT|Talk!]] 21:11, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

== Good or Evil? ==
Isn't there an argument about whether or not Veil was acually evil? I always considered him to be a gray character... does Mr. Jacques ever say anything about this subject?--[[User:Hyzenthlay of Redwall|Hyzenthlay of Redwall]] [[User talk:Hyzenthlay of Redwall|Watership Down is my Noonvale]] 01:28, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

I can't edit this page becuase of Lord TBT.[[User:The Woodland Warrior|The Woodland Warrior]] 21:02, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

:There's been plenty of fan discussion, and that sort of thing is more the place for an [[:Category:Essays|Essay]], as it is opinion. -- [[User:LordTBT|LordTBT]] [[Image:Tbtico.jpg]] [[User talk:LordTBT|Talk!]] 21:11, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

in one of the paragraphs, it says "''Veil then went to seek out his father, Swartt.[[File:Veil_Sixclaw_picture_1.jpg|thumb] Unbeknownst to Veil, Bryony, along with her friend Togget, were following him.''" isn't there suppposed another one of these: ] at teh end of the picture link?--[[User: ladyamber88 |ladyamber88 ]] [[Image:Mysterious otter 2.jpg| 100 px]] [[User talk: ladyamber88 |Plz leave a message after u click]] 00:56, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

== Good Vs. Evil ==

It's a matter of personal interpretation. It's like, (please do not get mad at me, this is only an example) the bible. It can be interpreted in a variety of ways. There's no definite answer to whether or not Veil was evil. --[[User:Martin2|Martin II]] [[Image:wiki.png| 50px | ]][[User Talk:Martin2|I scare myself...]] 22:43, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

It looks like Veil is quiet a contriverial charicter --[[User:Zoso159|Zoso159]] 23:24, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

I found this bit of info on Redwall.org in the Q&A section. Do you think we should put this in the article?

'''Where did you get the idea for the Wraith in The Outcast of Redwall, and did you see Veil as a good guy in the end?''
The wraith was another invention (it suited my mood for that part of the story). As to Veil and his final motives, I deliberately left that for the reader to decide. I have had many opinions and the jury is still out. --Brian Jacques
--[[User:Hyzenthlay of Redwall|Hyzenthlay of Redwall]] [[User talk:Hyzenthlay of Redwall|Watership Down is my Noonvale]] 23:41, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

I wish Lord TBT would unlock the editing for Veil's character page.[[User:The Woodland Warrior|The Woodland Warrior]] 17:48, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Well, if he did then it would be open to spammers. Grey characters tend to get spammed more often.

[[User:Shieldmaiden|Shieldmaiden]][[File:Thorn_the_Shieldmaiden.jpg|85px]][[User talk:Shieldmaiden|I live by honor and die like a warrior]] 17:35, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

I think that it's kind of like how Darth Vader was evil(at least in the first movies) until he had to chose between the one he loved and the one he worked for, though the choice was a bit easier for veil considering he hated his father. But in my opinion veil was still evil for the most part because while he saved Byrony from being killed he also did many things that were evil.

Sincerely, [[User:Lordsunflash|Lordsunflash]] [[File:Sunflash2.jpg|60px]] [[User talk:Lordsunflash|May The Wind Be at Your Back, Matey]]

I think Abbess Merriam put it best, she said, "There was some good in Veil, even if it cost him his life to show it." Even though Veil saved Byrony the rest of his life was spent doing evil; therefore I think Veil was mostly bad, but not entirely.[[User:Sandingomm the Wildcat|Sandingomm the Wildcat]] 22:25, July 11, 2011 (UTC)Sandingomm the Wildcat [[User talk:Sandingomm the Wildcat|This is Mossflower!]]

== Bella of Brockhall ==

[[Bella of Brockhall]] is repeated in this article, the second time being when she banishes him. This should be changed. [[User:The Fivemole|Burr Aye, Gurt Zurrs!]] 16:13, April 1, 2012 (UTC)

Can somebody change this? [[User:The Fivemole|Burr Aye, Gurt Zurrs!]] 22:45, April 2, 2012 (UTC)

In the last paragraph ''attemping'' should be '''attempting'''...-[[User:Segalia |Segalia Riverstorm, Otter Warrior]] [[File:Segalia.png|75 px]] [[User talk:Segalia| Living and writing adventures,1 Cor. 1:7-9]] 16:18, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

== Spelling error ==

Spelling error in edition on the picture. [[User:The Fivemole|The Fivemole]] [[Image:Grumm.jpg|60px]] [[Message_Wall:The Fivemole|Burr Aye, Gurt Zurrs!!]] 20:50, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

== How do we know that's not an image of Swartt Sixclaw? ==

The image header could be Swartt Sixclaw. More likely, seeing as Sunflash was at Salamandastron for most of Veil Sixclaw's lifetime, and he and Skarlath are pictured on the back cover. [[User:Argulor|Argulor]] ([[User talk:Argulor|talk]]) 04:08, September 10, 2016 (UTC)

I took a closer look and tried to find a hint with the flowers, thinking that they might be Wolfsbane. However I found no image of a member of the genus Aconitum looking like those flowers. However they look a bit like Nightshades, which are usually also very dangerous if ingested.--[[User:Risa Fer-Rat|Risa Fer-Rat]] ([[User talk:Risa Fer-Rat|talk]]) 09:26, April 24, 2017 (UTC)

Should the image be removed from the header? [[User:Argulor|Argulor]] ([[User talk:Argulor|talk]]) 06:14, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

:You are the only person calling into question the character on the cover. Much like Tagg is the on the cover of Taggerung, we're going with the "Outcast of Redwall" being the cover character here. Thanks. -- [[User:LordTBT|LordTBT]] [[Image:Tbtico.jpg]] [[Message_Wall:LordTBT|Talk!]] 14:43, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

== Facs, Fictions, and Missed Chances ==

I think Veil grewing up vile was a self-fulfilling prophecy from the very beginning: neglected by even his own father and probably by the "foster-rat", too (after all, not even she named him), he would always "hunger" for something: affection and attention (and even negative attention is attention!). You cannot really fill that hole anymore once a babe feels neglected and not loved. When Redfarl, Sumin and the others found Veil he was almost starved, and probably used to only getting touched in unfriendly manners - so no wonder he bites, and that he licks the blood from his teeth... well, the poor thing for the most parts in his short life to that point only had to eat grass and such, and blood provides a lot of nourishment.
Also I had the feeling that from the very beginning the abbey-dwellers would see Veil's action as "more vile" than they would have done with other Dibbuns. Like for instance: when a molemaid steals some honey she probably has to apologize and has to help with the dishes or such, and if she does not want to apologize she probably gets sent to bed without dinner. Veil probably had to apologize, had to help washing the dishes and scrub the kitchen-floor AND gets sent off without dinner.

Jacques greatly mingles real facts with fantasy in Veil, unfortunately missing the chance to tell an ambigious story, like for instance: Veil steals something, gets caught, knocks over a heavy candleholder that severly injures the one who caught him (or sets something on fire so great damage is dealt to e.g. the lards), and all but Bryony believe that he did it on purpose... or indeed the thing with the poison was an accident, and indeed the poison would turn your paws red, and because Veil was stealing strawberries his paws are red, but nobody could tell if it was from the poison or the berries.
After all, Jacques introduced already some vermin who weren't THAT bad (Thura and Dingeye were not really evil, and Blaggut was good-hearted, stating even that if somebody had cared for him when he was a babe he would not have grown to be a sea-rat). And while I get why badgers are "good" mustelids in the Redwall-series (after all they are known for sharing their burrows with rabbits, but ALSO sometimes with foxes!), otters WILL dig up mice once fish is scarce.

Fact is: badly socialized ferrets will always try to get their way with biting somebody (and it takes many, many months to make them understand that this is not the way it works, but there is not a 100% guarantee that it will work everytime); all ferrets are little thieves, they take what they find interesting, and hide it (but if socialised well you can "steal it back" without them getting aggressive). And neglected babes of any social sentient being will always behave "odd" compared to others, no matter how loving they are raised.--[[User:Risa Fer-Rat|Risa Fer-Rat]] ([[User talk:Risa Fer-Rat|talk]]) 09:11, April 24, 2017 (UTC)

== The Lost Legends of Redwall: The Scout ==

If you talk with [[Bolo Scrimpaw]] at the [[Winsome Wraith]], he brings up Veil. He's under the impression that the Redwallers made Veil feel like he was welcome before heartlessly casting him out; he seems unaware or willfully ignorant of any attempted murder. Someone who can will probably want to add that info; I would, but the page is protected.[[User:Kilmarnock228|Kilmarnock228]] ([[User talk:Kilmarnock228|talk]]) 20:29, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

:I’m guessing that this wasn’t seen.[[User:Kilmarnock228|Kilmarnock228]] ([[User talk:Kilmarnock228|talk]]) 10:16, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

:Hi I saw it. I don't see how it adds to the article. It might make better sense on the Bolo article. -- [[User:LordTBT|LordTBT]] [[Image:Tbtico.jpg]] [[Message_Wall:LordTBT|Talk!]] 13:29, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

::I mean, it seems like it’s at least worth noting that Veil is mentioned in the game.[[User:Kilmarnock228|Kilmarnock228]] ([[User talk:Kilmarnock228|talk]]) 13:12, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

== Change to Veil ==

His name is just Veil. The only time he is referred to Veil Sixclaw it is in relation to what’s being said about his father. But Swartt never loved Veil, and Veil never loved Swartt. Also, Veil is all he’s ever called by characters. [[User:BirdOfBlueFeathers22|BirdOfBlueFeathers22]] ([[User talk:BirdOfBlueFeathers22|talk]]) 09:35, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

:This is wrong. He calls himself this. "Blunderin' old fools, don't you know who I am? I'm Veil Sixclaw, son of Swartt the Warlord!"
-- [[User:LordTBT|LordTBT]] [[Image:Tbtico.jpg]] [[Message_Wall:LordTBT|Talk!]] 17:32, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh wow, I forgot about that. [[User:BirdOfBlueFeathers22|BirdOfBlueFeathers22]] ([[User talk:BirdOfBlueFeathers22|talk]]) 00:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

== Another mistake? ==

“Having stained his hands with the deadly plant, Veil attempted to wash them with a special solution. However, the cleanser was a ruse devised to reveal the culprit”

Pardon me. It’s been a while since I’ve read the book. But isn’t Veil tricked into thinking he stained his hands with plant, and the cleanser is actually the red dye that stains his hands? The page for [[Sister Withe]] seems to support this.

Talk:Veil Sixclaw - Revision history

imported>BirdOfBlueFeathers22: /* Change to Veil */