Talk:Redwall Timeline

This is a good idea, but it needs a bit more structure.

Being a dissenter myself, I have pretty much no knowledge of Redwall History past Loamhedge (when I became disillusioned with the seires - or, perhaps, grew too old to enjoy it any more), and it's been so long that I can't remember the timeline all that well. This being said, here's a proposed layout for the timelines - if indeed we choose to segregate them into sections.

Early Period

As listed.

Tyrant Period

As listed, but up until Tsarmina's death.

Reformation Period

Construction of Redwall to events of Outcast of Redwall.

First Intermediate Period

Mariel of Redwall to Salamandastron.

High Period

Redwall to The Pearls of Lutra

Second Intermediate Period

The Long Patrol to The Taggerung

Late Period

Triss onward.

142.151.160.247 20:24, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your comments (and I encourage you to read the later books!). I feel that the Reformation Period ends with Tsarmina's death, as it is the Reformation of Mossflower Woods. -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 20:35, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Darn, I forgot to log in when I left that original message.

I think that the "Reformation Period" refers more to the fact that the big warlords (Badrang, Verdrauga/Tsarmina, Ungatt Trun) have all been knocked out of action, and there's pretty much a "new authority" being created in the form of Redwall, and the reinforcement of Salamandastron by Sunflash the Mace later on. So, I'd argue the Reinforcement Period ends before "Mariel of Redwall", by which point both of the major power locii in the area - the Abbey and Salamandastron - have been firmly established. But that's just me...

As for reading the others - if I may make a brief digression - well, to be honest, when I read Loamhedge, I got the sense that something in the series had just been lost, and I never picked up a sequel. Whether this is due to a genuine malaise on the part of the series as a whole, or simply because I grew out of it (the black-and-white morality of the Redwall Universe is a bit simplistic, and as a reader I tend to prefer it when the moral lines are comparatively blurred), I cannot say for sure. Regardless, I did love and treasure the series up until that point - I must have read Mariel of Redwall about 5000 times growing up, and do think that creating a cohesive timeline would be a good idea. I may not remember everything in the series, but I think the framework I listed above might be a good place to start.

- d2r 03:18, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

The issue is that I think that the period where Martin enters Mossflower is an entirely separate period from when he was at Marshank, as well as the fact that the Loamhedge gets the plague. Perhaps this section could be called the 'Tsarmina's Reign', and then, the Reformation Period as you described.

I'm older than you and most in the ROC, and I haven't stopped reading Redwall since I first started in the mid-90s. Considering it's been 6 years since you picked up a book, why not try the latest one, Doomwyte? -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 04:24, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Granted, but Tsarmina certainly counts as one of the Tyrants. However, I do see your point about Mossflower being in a separate timeframe. In that case, we'd need to make the Late Period from Eulalia or Doomwyte onward, and include a distinct period for Triss and The Taggerung.

As for reading more books...well, maybe. After Loamhedge, though, I do wonder if the series hasn't passed its prime to some extent. Plus, the morality system in Redwall always bbugged me - it's black and white, and to some extent determined by race (the concept of "vermin" races being somehow inherently evil - most obviously in the case of Veil Sixclaw - always bothered me a bit, even when I was a kid), with a few exceptions like Blaggut. Perhaps I'll try the next one, though - I've always been a huge proponent of reading the books in chronological (as opposed to publication) order, and I have always had the habit of over-thinking the meaning of stories, so... —This unsigned comment was added by D2r (talk • contribs) 04:42, November 19, 2009. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Technically, Mattimeo, PoL, Long Patrol, Marlfox, Taggerung, and Triss are all sequels. After Triss, the books consist of unrelated stories. -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 08:56, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about Triss, since I think it takes place long enough after Marlfox to warrant a second entry. This being said, I think you're right about the others. Perhaps we could rework the layout to format like this? What are your thoughts?

Early Period

As listed, but up until Luke kills Vilu Daskar.

Tyrant Period

From Badrang's desertion of Clogg to Tsarmina's death and the destruction of Kotir.

Reformation Period

Construction of Redwall to events of Outcast of Redwall.

First Intermediate Period

Mariel of Redwall to Salamandastron.

High Period

Redwall to Mattimeo

Second Intermediate Period

The Pearls of Lutra to Triss

Late Period

Loamhedge onward.

- d2r 21:11, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

I'm liking this, except for the Tyrant period again. I really feel that Martin as a youth and older Martin are 2 separate Periods. The Tyrant period should be split in half, everything else I'm fine with. -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 05:42, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Well, if the Second Intermediate Period can span multiple generations and books, I don't really see why the Tyrant Period can't. But what do you suggest for the divisions?- d2r 15:32, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Period:

As listed, but up until Luke kills Vilu Daskar.

Slaver Period:

From Badrang's desertion of Clogg to Martin leaving Noonvale

Tyrant Period:

Tsarmina's death and the destruction of Kotir.

Reformation Period:

Construction of Redwall to events of Outcast of Redwall.

First Intermediate Period:

Mariel of Redwall to Salamandastron.

High Period:

Redwall to Mattimeo

Second Intermediate Period:

The Pearls of Lutra to Triss

Late Period:

Loamhedge onward.

In anticipation of the arguments against Slaver, It is safe to assume that Martin has been captured by Badrang by the time Luke killed Vilu Daskar because the cave of the tribe was abandoned. Also, the whole fight against Badrang was concerned with freeing the slaves and Badrang stole the slaves from Clogg, lending to an appropriate name in my opinion.

ShieldmaidenFile:Thorn the Shieldmaiden.jpgI live by honor and die like a warrior 17:11, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Or we could have something like this

Pre-Martin the Warrior Before Martin the Warrior

Age of Martin Martin the Warrior to Ledgend of Luke

Completion of Redwall Outcast of Redwall to Salamandastron

Age of the Warriors Redwall to Pearls of Lutra

Age of Cregga Long Patrol to Taggerung

Late Age Triss onward

I think that the timeline sections should correspond to important events.--Gandr Adderbane 00:43, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Completion of Redwall Outcast of Redwall to Salamandastron

Age of the Warriors Redwall to Pearls of Lutra

About the above...should we point out that the gap between Salamandastron and Redwall has little in the way of information?-----Clockworthy File:Lairdbosie.jpg From Clockworth to Eternity 01:04, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Possibly. We could also call it "Dark Period" (referring to the lack of information, ref. the Dark Age) - d2r 02:25, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Revised Layout Proposal

I think Shieldmaiden's divsion system has some merit. I'd like propose that we use it on the page, with a few stylistic differences and further specification of the period separations. Here's what I propose we do.

Early Period:

As listed, but up until Luke kills Vilu Daskar.

Slaver Period:

From Badrang's desertion of Clogg to the Battle of Marshank.

Tyrant Period:

From Martin's departure from Noonvale to the destruction of Kotir.

Reformation Period:

Construction of Redwall to events of Outcast of Redwall.

First Intermediate Period:

Mariel of Redwall to Salamandastron.

Dark Period

Historical blackout between Salamandastron and Redwall.

High Period:

Redwall to Mattimeo.

Second Intermediate Period:

The Pearls of Lutra to Triss.

Late Period:

Loamhedge onward.

Another option would be to substitute "Ancient" for "Early", and "Early" for "Slaver", but other than that I think this particular structure would work. Any opinions? - d2r 02:28, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

d2r: Here is my proposal:

Orbis Rutilamurum

Early Period As listed.

Period of the Tyrants As listed

Mossflower Besieged From Loamhedge plague to defeat of Tsarmina

Reformation Period Construction of Redwall to events of Outcast of Redwall.

First Intermediate Period Mariel of Redwall to Salamandastron.

Pax Muscaflori

High Period Redwall to Mattimeo

Second Intermediate Period

The Pearls of Lutra to Triss

Late Period Loamhedge onward.

-- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 02:34, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

I think that works, but with the exception of "Pax Muscaflori" (which I think is a perfect name for the information blackout - although it's plausible, I guess, that it wasn't perfectly peaceful), I feel that it'd be best to keep the naming system consistent (thus, "Tyrant Period" instead of "Mossflower Besieged"). To this end, I present my original proposed layout, as revised by Shieldmaiden, with modifications by TBT:

Early Period:

As listed, but up until Luke kills Vilu Daskar.

Slaver Period:

From Badrang's desertion of Clogg to Martin's Departure from Noonvale.

Tyrant Period:

From Loamhedge plague to the destruction of Kotir.

Reformation Period:

Construction of Redwall to events of Outcast of Redwall.

First Intermediate Period:

Mariel of Redwall to Salamandastron.

Pax Muscaflori:

Historical blackout between Salamandastron and Redwall.

High Period:

Redwall to Mattimeo.

Second Intermediate Period:

The Pearls of Lutra to Triss.

Late Period:

Loamhedge onward.

What do you think of this?- d2r 02:42, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

While we don't know whether it was 100% peaceful, we know it was for a good amount of time given the Redwallers were quite unprepared for Cluny, thus I think the name is fitting. I'll work with this, however I don't like the name for 'Slaver Period' because it makes it seem all too MtW-centric, and even if it is, it may not be in the future. -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 02:49, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we could go with my earlier idea, then:

Ancient Period:

As listed, but up until Luke kills Vilu Daskar.

Early Period:

From Badrang's desertion of Clogg to Martin's Departure from Noonvale.

etc.

- d2r 02:51, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

After some reflection on the correct word, I like Primeval Period vs. Ancient Period. If you agree, I'll edit the article to reflect the discussion, and then further contributions can be made. -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 04:17, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead. I do think that "Primeval" doesn't quite capture it, either, though (it implies something along the lines of dinosaurs or protozoa when I think of how it's used), so I think we should keep an open book on how to name it. Other than that, I think we have a working layout going, and we can probably edit the article if you feel that it's appropriate. - d2r 04:51, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

I like the Pax Muscaflori idea.--Gandr Adderbane 23:40, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Summaries

My main contention with this page is that it really shouldn't be abridged summaries of the books, then it's not really a timeline. Unfortunately the High Period is looks like a Redwall summary. -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 03:33, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Granted; I was a little too detailed there. I'll remove all the unimportant bits. - d2r 03:39, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Okay...I've cut down the High Period a bit. If you still think it's too long, remove anything you think is extraneous; I'll submit to your better judgement on the matter. - d2r 03:48, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

I've expanded the High Period to include the events of Mattimeo. Do you think Martin II's birth should go at the end of the High Period, or the beginning of the Second Intermediate? Oh, and I do agree with you on the question of plot summarization; I've cut out everything non-essential. Think it's streamlined enough, or should we remove anything else? - d2r 19:36, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

I think everything is coming along well and looks good. --LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 23:56, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Quest

Where is it mentioned that Martin goes on another quest? Brockfang File:Brockfang.JPG Eeeee aye eeeeee 23:42, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

I think that the Tyrant Period should include both Badrang and Tsarmina's rules. Because 'Primeval' and 'Early' mean almost the same thing, and if the 'Tyrant Period' is only about the rule of Kotir, then it might as well be called 'Rule of the Greeneyes Family'.--Verminfate File:Lask1.jpg Beware furbearers... Varanus Riptail is coming! 23:43, April 20, 2010

Martin's time up north and Martin's time after he slayed Badrang are separate. -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 02:05, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

I can't remember a reference to Martin going on another quest...can someone point that out?--Rorc Ee aye eeeh! 00:08, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

It was mentioned in Doomwyte that while Gonff stole the idol's eyes, Martin was on a quest.--Verminfate 1:10, April 21, 2010

Ahh, ok thanks--Rorc Ee aye eeeh! 15:54, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Pax Muscaflori?

I'm pretty sure Pax is Latin for Peace, ergo Muscaflori is probably Mossflower? But shouldn't it be the "Pax Muscaflori Period"? Also, I the "First Intermediate Period" and "Second Intermediate Period"don't work as well as the rest of the Periods. My suggestion, to kill two Sparras with one stone, is that we lump the 1st Intermediate Period into the Reformation period as the events are not far apart and both periods are short, comparatively. The Second Intermediate Period would become simply the First Intermediate Period. And what's this about Martin's unknown quest? I believe it was said he died peacefully at Redwall. Also, if he died on a quest, how did his sword/shield/belt/body get back to Redwall in his tomb? --Martin II 174.19.99.150 01:11, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Has nobody read Doomwyte?????? (or paid attention to the details?) Martin came back after he was done with the quest.--Verminfate 01:17, April 21, 2010

Pax Muscaflori is Latin for "Mossflower Peace", in the same sense of 'Pax Romana', 'Pax Americana', etc. It is a prolonged period of relative peace in Mossflower, which is all we can believe because we truly do not know what occurred. Verminfate covered the bit on Martin's quest. Clearly he did not die on the quest, however, he was on a quest. The Reformation Period is designed to cover all of the early Redwall years, that's why there is a separation. -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 02:05, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, but what my real question was is should is isn't "Pax Muscaflori" just a noun that refers to the concept of peace in Mossflower? Wouldn't the appropriate name for a period with such peace be "Period of Pax Muscaflori" or "Pax Muscaflori Period"? 03:17, April 21, 2010 71.220.187.34

No. By name, it refers to the period. E.g, 'Pax Romana' refers to the period of peace in Rome. -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 06:30, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Primeval

I own Doomwyte, but I don't recall that. If you give an approximate location and I can look it up.

According to Wikitionary, "Primeval" comes from the Latin word primaevus, meaning "in the first or earliest period of life". Now, literally, it might be applied to define the Early Ages in the Redwall Series, but we must also consider popular connotation, i.e that "Primeval" has been taken to mean "Dinosaurs, Megladons, and Those Little Microbes". For the sake of clarity, I suggest we change it to "primordial", meaning: "constituting a beginning; giving origin to something derived or developed; original; elementary", a more neutral definition, and also since it is a more obscure word connotation would be less of an issue. Of course, "Ancient" would be better, but I believe TBT objected to that. Another method would be using Latin words, such as Pax Muscaflori has been used. Under that standard, I suggest the "Mane Gramensato", or "Early Mossflower" (Literally: Early Grassplant) Period.--Martin II Am I really a ninja?

On page 29 in Gonff's narrative.--Verminfate 01:17, April 21, 2010

We're going with dictionary definitions here. Literally, it is acceptable. It's obvious dinosaurs and bacteria as characters do not exist in this world. -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 02:05, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

This I know. What I'm trying to get at is that the defenition is less nuertal than other words, and that there are a number of better, clearler, and (thought this dosen't matter) better sounding options. I just wanted to point our a few. .--Martin II Am I really a ninja? 03:11, April 21, 2010 71.220.187.34

To be honest, I think "Primeval" sounds more "netural" than "primordial". Just my two cents. - d2r 12:45, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

TIMELINE

Just a reminder, this is supposed to be a timeline of events, approximately. Not the entire plot of all 21 Redwall books summarized in about 10-15 short sentences. -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 19:22, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Oh. Oops. So we just keep events of Pearls of Lutra to events of Triss and all those? Or should we put in minor details.--Verminfate

Put in major events, such as "Graylunk is taken into Redwall etc." - d2r 12:45, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Did Vilu Daskar really take creatures from Luke's tribe captive? I thought they were all killed except the ones that weren't there. And Martin and Winifred of course.--Snowpaw the Wild--I am a Warriiiiiioooooooorrrrrrrrrr! 20:34, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

A) martin was captured by badrang before the goreleech was destroyed

B) I don't recall boar the fighter fighting verdauga —This unsigned comment was added by 99.98.209.91 (talk • contribs) 23:22, May 16, 2010. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Thank you for pointing out these errors. -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 02:01, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Question about wording

Wouldn't it sound beter if instead of "Woodlanders besiege and sack Kotir" it said "Woodlanders besiege and destroy Kotir"? It just seems confusing to leave out the fact that it sank into the lake.

Brockfang File:Brockfang.JPG Eeeee aye eeeeee 03:02, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

In that sense it really wasn't "destroyed" was it? -- LordTBT File:Tbtico.jpg ^Talk! 16:53, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

What's important enough to be included? Weddings? Births? Deaths? New Abbots/Abbesses? There's one of each once and then you don't have them again? What do we want so that we can have a common standard throughout the article?-Segalia Riverstorm, Archer Ottermaid Warrioress File:Segalia.png ^{Eph. 6:10} 14:46, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Update?

This timeline's badly out of date - someone needs to include the events of The Sable Quean and The Rogue Crew in the Late Period. I haven't read either, but someone else here must have, surely - is there anyone willing to take it upon themselves to edit the article and bring it up to date? - d2r 21:02, November 26, 2011 (UTC)